Guns are bad, m'kay

I started a bit of a comment thread over at the Lancashire Telegraph. It seems the local plod are having a weapons amnesty and inviting all the local thugs to drop their knives and knuckledusters in an amnesty bin.

Apparently we're having a lot of violent crime and the bizzies think the best way to deal with it is to invite the violent offenders to voluntarily disarm themselves.

From September 2011 to September 2012, violent crime increased by 1.2 per cent, from 21,006 reports to 21,257 – a rise of 251 crimes. 

I commented that the reason for all this violent crime is because we as a people have been disarmed. What we need is to be able to protect ourselves.

BuckoTheMoose says...
11:56am Tue 5 Feb 13
Violent crime is increasing because every law abiding citizen has been disarmed by their government.
Now a mugger can chase a victim into a petrol station and repeatedly stab them with nothing more than a screwdriver.
The law abiding are not even allowed to carry a pepper spray for defence. We can't rely on the police to help us; no mugger is going to wait while we dial 999.
The situation has become silly. Criminals know we are disarmed and know they will face no opposition.

Guns are a very contentious issue, but American states with concealed carry laws have much lower violent crime rates that we do in the UK.

It's about time the British citizen was again allowed to defend themselves effectively. It's about time we looked again at gun control in England and at least took steps to allow people to carry non lethal defensive weapons such as pepper sprays or tazers.

The police and government can't help us, they should at least allow us to help ourselves.
 
Thoughts? Well I got a few. I was pleased to see the first reply was from someone who agreed with me and said that it's time we saw concealed carry laws in the UK so we can benefit from the reduced crime that concealed carry states in the US see.

It all went downhill from there though

Chris P Bacon says...
6:27pm Tue 5 Feb 13
 
 That's beyond ridiculous. If you are seriously suggesting we actually consider putting weapons out on the street, that would be the time for the sane to bail out and emigrate.

The law on guns should be even simpler than it is; anyone should indeed be able to apply for one UNTIL they say they want one. Then, they automatically render themselves incapable of being trusted to have one.

And if the criminals are aware that anyone can carry a non-lethal weapon, you can be certain this will rack up the ante and the crims will carry worse weapons to counter the ones they know they'll have to face.
 
Chris thinks that no one should be allowed to carry a gun. He also thinks that if we were armed, criminals would arm themselves with even bigger weapons. 

On the face of it, that argument makes sense. If you peel the onion, it falls apart.

Muggers target the weak. Muggers go for people who are smaller and weaker than themselves, they go for women, old folk, people shuffling along listening to their i-pod with no self awareness.

As long as citizens are disarmed, muggers have an easy job. They only need to carry a screwdriver (I referenced this story in my original comment) and suddenly they are king shit over the vulnerable.

As a rule, a mugger will be armed. Those that are not will beat you into unconsciousness before taking your wallet. They will not put themselves at any risk.

If citizens were armed, muggers would not get bigger weapons and start shootouts in the street, most of them would not bother at all. 

Violent crime does not often meet with stiff justice these days. A mugger who knocks you out or threatens you with a screwdriver would get a few weeks in prison, if not a suspended sentence. They can live with that. If they decided to take on an armed target and upped their game to murder, that would see them spending a great many years in prison. Muggers and rapists do not choose to become murderers because their target has a gun, they are most likely to turn tail and run.

No mugger is going to attack someone who may be carrying a gun. To suggest that they would get bigger guns is, to coin a phrase, beyond ridiculous.

Scooby says...
6:31pm Tue 5 Feb 13

And how many gun related deaths have we had in our schools in the past 10 years? Compared to America where guns are freely available?

Keep weapon rules as they are, for the most part they work.

As for the comment about the screwdriver attack, screwdrivers aren't banned. Can you imagine the outcome had the attacker had access to a gun?
 
 Regarding his comment about American school shootings, and this next comment...

Chris P Bacon says...
6:52pm Tue 5 Feb 13

The last year for which we have figures; deaths by shootings in the United States 13,000
Deaths by shootings in the United Kingdom 53
 
 ...see my post here. Gun deaths may be higher in the US but you have to look at the bigger picture of overall violent crime, which is far lower in open carry states than it is in the UK.

Scooby also had this to say about the recent screwdriver stabbing in Darwen

Can you imagine the outcome had the attacker had access to a gun?
 
The attacker was a criminal. He may well have had access to a gun but didn't feel the need to take the risk of using one as his victim was unarmed. What would have been the outcome if the victim had access to a gun?

My advocate stepped in at this point with a few questions

Good call says...
8:44pm Tue 5 Feb 13
1.Please will you provide a breakdown of the circumstances of those deaths (gangs,suicides etc).
2. Have you read the numerous articles about people shooting burglars, armed robbers and other thugs.
3.Do you know that the US Homeland Security has been buying huge amounts of ammo.
4.Do you know that most, if not all of the mass shootings in America have taken place in "gun free zones", where concealed carry is banned.
5. Do you think that people should be allowed to posess non-lethal weapons for self defence (batons, tasers, self defence sprays) or should we just rely on the police to protect us.
 
To which Mr Bacon replied
 
 1. No, find your own you lazy get.
2. I don't subscribe to US news sites so no, have you?
3. No, and I don't believe it.
4. And?
5. What 'people' are you referring to? How is 'people' to be defined? Who's going to decide who qualifies as 'people' and who is to police that? 
 
 And I say

1) I think he already knows the answer, he's asking if you do. How many of your quoted gun deaths are criminal against criminal, how many are legitimate self defence etc? You see, he is looking at the bigger picture rather than just quoting dry statistics.
2) Yes, and maybe you should if you are going to quote US statistics. Guns are very useful for home defence. In England we get tied up and robbed because we have no means of defence.
3) Your belief or lack thereof, does not make fact. 
4) And? Are you serious? Places where guns are banned attract more gun deaths. Criminals ignore gun bans, the law abiding do not, and this is the result. I think this is a very significant point that you choose to brush off without comment.
5) And here we begin to ramble so I'll clarify. 'People' are us. Law abiding citizens who want to be able to protect ourselves from criminals.

Miguel12 says...
9:09pm Tue 5 Feb 13
Just moved here from South Africa where everyone has a gun, legal or not, slept with mine under my pillow, scarey stuff!
Believe me guns are bad news, I came back to civilisation to get away from them. Anyone who thinks we should be armed is insane, the bad guys always have a bigger stick, a bigger knife or a bigger gun and unlike the average joe they know how to use them. Believe me when you wake at 2.00am by hearing a burglar by the time you've cleared the sleep from your eyes, found your gun taken off the safety and pointed it at some blurred outline you're dead or their gone, I've shot at a few and missed every time. Guns are bad news.
 
Scary stuff indeed, however, South Africa might be a bad example, it's a bit fucked up isn't it? Why not stick to countries that have a better rule of law than the hell hole that is SA? USA, Australia, UK, Switzerland etc. They all provide evidence that an armed population suffers less violent crime than a disarmed one.

After the question and answer session above, Good Call Asked Chris P Bacon if he really knew anything about gun ownership in the US. He told us he really doesn't:

And why on earth should I give a ****-stained Donald Duck about the 'firearms ownership in the USA'? As long as the killing sticks are kept out of the hands of the problems who want them in this country, that's all that matters to me.
 
He thinks guns are 'killing sticks'. He is more than happy to remain defenceless; a victim.
 
I'm more than happy for him to be a victim, the trouble is, it's wimps like him who are frightened of inanimate objects, that keep the rest of us vulnerable to violent crime.
 
I would prefer to be armed. If it would help, I would happily promise never to use my gun to defend Chris if he was in trouble.

Thoughts?

11 comments:

themanwithmanychins said...

Killing stick.. I lolled at that.
So is a screwdriver
So is a biro if you use it right
So is a bit of wood from a tree
So is a baseball bat
So is a pickaxe handle
On and on.

These people are genuinely retarded in my opioning.

Ooohh, the big wonderful beneficent state will protect us all from the nasty crims.. and clearly they have never been on the receiving end of a violent crime.

JuliaM said...

Just another brainless idiot who wandered away from the CiF reservation... :)

This Dormer case in the US is getting very interesting, isn't it?

Smoking Hot said...

I have the same views Bucko. Predators will always target the weakest.

http://nothing-2-declare.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/yes-i-know-its-illegal-but.html

Bucko The Moose said...

Manwithchins - Yes, what a muppet. He probably wants all those things banned too.

Bucko The Moose said...

Julia - Heh, true. I'll have to admit my ignorance to the Dormer case. Is that the canabis guy?

Bucko The Moose said...

Smoking Hot - Yes, read that post. Muggers do not like folk who can fight back

JuliaM said...

Bucko, not exactly:

http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=47204

Enjoy! ;)

Bucko The Moose said...

Not exactly? Not even close.

Thanks for the link. I will enjoy :-)

Mud in the Blood said...

Teaching pigs to sing Bucko? You will never convince these turds that they are wrong. I am quite happy for them to decry self defence and the means to secure it but I'm not so happy when they insist that others have to do the same. the trouble is that I am reaching the point where I am too old to fight and too fat to run, so what to do? The sensible answer is to have some means available to even the odds, waiting 30 minutes or so for the rozzers to drag their lazy arses out of KFC is not really a viable option is it. If I am attacked then I need to be able to defend myself, then call the police to come and clear up and do the paperwork. As it stands its me that they would have to clear up

Bucko The Moose said...

MIB - Teaching pigs to sing? You are right of course, but I just can't help myself.

My comment got published in the print version today. There was also a front page story about a 50 year old woman who got robbed at knifepoint at a cash machine. *sigh*

Like you, I am more than happy for people to choose not to own weapons of self defence, I just don't like it when they insist I am also disarmed.

"call the police to come and clear up and do the paperwork"
That's how it should be. Police are only an after the event response, they can't help us when the shit hits it.

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